@reesan, when I saw that title, I thought you'd been kicked out of Japan!

ooops, sorry. slightly misleading from me but it is the title of the actual article.

maybe i shouldn't have been so lazy and optimised it by retitling it for japansoc. ^^

Interesting, well written and just the right length. Would love to see more like this on Japansoc.

Thanks, Michael. I'll have to write the story of what happened next, I think. In the mean time, I've just submitted a political piece that should be of interest to expat Canadians. It pertains to the proposed taxation of world-wide income for Canadians.

Worldwide taxing? That wiould be a bummer and a half!
Fascinating cautionary tale

I was reminded of this incident when I read your story about the Yokohama transit cops.

I've never heard so much tosh in my life. It's tales like this that just make stupid rumors circulate.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO LEAVE JAPAN TO CHANGE YOUR VISA, I GUARANTEE.

And really, who is stupid enough to say they're working on a tourist visa?

> YOU DO NOT NEED TO LEAVE JAPAN TO CHANGE YOUR VISA, I GUARANTEE.

But we're not talking about changing a visa, we're talking about securing one in the first place. You do need to be outside the country to *apply for* a visa, the link I posted in the article states the requirement clearly enough.

> And really, who is stupid enough to say they're working on a tourist visa?

When they detained me it wasn't by chance. They knew the signs they were looking for. Third "visit" in the course of six months? It was clear what was going on. The application of the law might be uneven but lying to the immigration cops wasn't the way I was going to go. It wouldn't have done anyone any good for me to piss them off and have the exile become a lasting one.

If one enters Japan on a tourist visa and lands a job that will sponsor them for a working visa, one must apply for that visa from outside Japan. Same if one is on a student visa. Those two types of visas absolutely cannot be changed into a working visa within Japan. How do I know? Because I was lucky enough to enter Japan on a cultural activities visa, which is one of the very few visas which can be changed to a working visa. That, and I have worked for companies that hired people straight out of college within Japan or who came over on a tourist visa, and every single one of those people was required, by law, to leave Japan and submit their application for a working visa through a Japanese embassy or consulate overseas.

yes. i had to apply for my intra-company transferee visa at the japanese consulate in toronto.

Sorry, but no.

I have changed my TOURIST visa into a WORKING VISA twice now in the last 3 years from within Japan, and both times it was (obviously) approved.

The first time took around a month in Yokkaichi (mie-ken, shithole, dont go there), the second time took just 2 weeks to be approved (in Kyoto).

The end all and be all is that the law states you have to leave the country-- but as in all things in Japan it always depends on what Japanese official you are working with and where you are doing it. ;D

For example, my whole family entered on tourist visas (husband had a job lined up, we came over early to set up house). They allowed my husband to change to a work visa without leaving the country. Myself and my first child also switched our visas (to dependent) without leaving the country. I gave birth in Bangkok last year and my youngest entered Japan with a tourist visa and changed to a dependent visa when we got back home (to Japan) without having to leave the country.

I know the law, as I said the law states you have to leave. But, it does happened and has happened that people have switched their tourist visa. I know because my whole family has done it. Of course, I also know we were darn lucky (we were completely prepared to leave to do it properly, we were surprised when they said it would not be required to leave).

i spent the first 9 months of the year 2000 in japan using a tourist visa. i left the country every 90 days and returned a week later. on my third entry i was taken to "the room" and given the spotlight in the eyes treatment. i told them that i was there to train japanese people to do my job (IT field). they said that it was taking me a very long time (i bit my tongue but was thinking of some smart-ar$e comment about the quality of the student). i maintained my position and they let me go advising that this would be the last entry on a tourist visa that they would grant. i soon after had it switched to an intra-company transferee visa.

Nice work! These guys didn't seem at all interested in why I was here working. At the time, rounding up people trying to transfer to connecting flights seemed a bit much.

I had to leave the country six times back and forth to renew my visa until I finally decided to get serious and find a sponsor. No Joke...got the stickers in my passport to prove it.

Actually, you already had a tourist visa, so you could have just stayed from the start by "changing" your tourist visa into a working visa. I have done so twice now, from inside Japan. If you wanted to get a working visa straight from the start, then yes, you do need to do so from outside the country - however in every case you mentioned, you came in on a tourist visa and could have have changed from that quite easily without leaving the country.

Sorry for calling you stupid, btw. I know how being detained by the police can be, and lying certainly wouldn't have been an option. But really, it should never have come to that. At the very least, you could claim to have been randomly offered a job while here, and that you are in the process of changing your visa (for which your passport would have been stamped at the time of application), and if the company was questioned, they would have simply stated you were not being paid yet.

Having said all that, I would not expect you to have known all that at the time. I just dont like misinformation.

Where are you from, Frugalista, because I can state with absolute certainty that Americans, at least, cannot enter on a tourist visa and then convert it to a working visa.

I did it. However, the application process for my work visa had already pretty much been approved by that point.

I entered on a tourist visa because my employer sent my certificate of eligibility via a horribly slow method and it arrived the morning of my flight to Japan. The day after arriving in Japan, I took the certificate and my passport to the immigration office in Tokyo. One week later, I returned and had the work visa officially put into my passport.

Theoretically, if you arrive in Japan on a tourist visa and find a sponsor for a work visa fast enough, you might be able to complete the process before your 90 days run out. [I met a couple people who say they did it.] Being an American might even be an advantage in such a case, since the authorities tend to scrutinize our applications a lot less than people from Asian countries.

Yes, they can. Nationality has nothing to do with it.

I think the law must have changed in the last few years.

@James: You only need to have the APPLICATION done within 90 days. The approval can go over, you will still have a stamp in your passport saying you have applied to alter your visa and it is valid until you response comes back (though Im not sure what would happen if it was denied, and your previous tourist visa was up... maybe you have a week to sod off?)

Nationality has nothing to do with it.

I'm not purporting myself as any type of authority on this issue, but isn't visa issuance largely based upon bilateral agreement between countries?

For example, MOFA has Visa exemptions arrangements with around 63 countries. Why wouldn't other visa treatment be country/region based?

@Frugalista - then you must be blessed. As I said, I have worked with numerous people over the years who have tried to change their status from "tourist" or "student" to "specialist in humanities" (which is what a working visa for English teachers works out to), and every single one of them had to leave Japan and apply overseas. My first employer was almost overjoyed that my university was not properly registered as one in Japan, meaning I got a '"cultural activities" visa, as that one could be converted within Japan, as a certificate of eligibility for a sponsored visa was not required - I had already received a certificate of eligibility to live in Japan when I applied for the cultural activities visa, and so did not need to get one again.

That was the difference - tourists (at least those from countries on the waiver list) don't get a CoE. They just show up and are let in (unless they are R.D.Jr.). "Students" also apparently don't get a CoE. But if you have entered Japan on any visa that required you to get a CoE prior to arrival you can then change your status of residence after arrival.

I had one friend, the wife of a co-worker, who had to leave just to change from "tourist" to "sponsored spouse" - again, immigration was adamant it could not be done within Japan, as she did not have a CoE when she landed and they do not issue CoEs within Japan.

And if the law has changed, then it has only just changed. My present employer sponsored someone in late 2008, and we were expressly told by immigration that she had to run all the paperwork through the consulate serving her section of the US and get the certificate of eligibility issued there, whereupon she would receive her working visa upon landing. They were very clear on that - even if she had all the paperwork, a CoE could not be issued within Japan, and without one she could not get a working visa. We sent paperwork to the local immigration office, they filled out their sections, and then we sent the paperwork to her to take to the embassy to get the CoE so she could present it upon landing.

> Sorry for calling you stupid, btw.

But I was stupid. I entrusted the situation to my employer to sort out. They'd done nothing else to engender trust, I guess I was all starry-eyed about being here in the first place.

> I just dont like misinformation.

I can only rely on the official story I've had from all sources. The immigration cops at the airport and the staff at the Japanese consulate in Vancouver (to which I was deported) both insisted that there was no way I could arrange for the visa from within Japan.

I commend you on your good fortune with your applications. I just don't seem to be one of those people I'm afraid.

The immigration cops at the airport and the staff at the Japanese consulate in Vancouver (to which I was deported) both insisted that there was no way I could arrange for the visa from within Japan.

That's the official line they have to say because people on tourist visas are supposed to be engaging in sightseeing. Looking for work while on a tourist visa is probably illegal. They cannot actively encourage people to violate the terms of their visas.

Actually, you already had a tourist visa

I thought he was standing at Japanese immigration waiting for them to stamp his passport with the tourist visa. I don't think he already had a tourist visa, I think they declined to issue him one and sent his sad ass home. ^_^

...thereby making it an even sadder ass. It's true.

19 hours of flying and three hours of interrogation in a day. Woohoo. And now I'm a business owner in this country. 8^)

so now that you know how to exploit japan's immigration laws, how is that human trafficking business going for you?

Btw, my mate did the same to stay here while out of work - he kept leaving the country and heading to thailand for one night. He did it about nine times before they grabbed him for questioning, at which point a begging GF and breaking down in tears got him back in to sort out a real visa!

See, theatrics wouldn't have occurred to me or to my girlfriend (now wife). Lousy girlfriend—too proud to beg! I guess as people we're both hon^H^H^H suckers.

Frugalista, in your more recent comment you refer to a change in the law "in the last few years". When was it that you converted your visa(s), was it quite some time ago?

I can state with absolute certainty that reading these comments is too funny and has brightened my day. There are just so many of us that are certain we are right only to wind up being wrong.

Indeed. If only there were a way to store all human knowledge in a large database of some sort, with a simple keyword search mechanism, there'd be no need for such idle speculation. We'd then perhaps know that you can engage in commerce and other activities, like job-hunting, so long as you're not paid for it. Or that "tourist visa" is really actually a visa exemption. *Sigh* maybe one day...

http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/short/novisa.html

oh, I already downloaded that. All human knowledge - it's an iPhone app.

Nationals of these countries and regions are not required to obtain a visa to enter Japan when the purpose of their visit is commerce, a conference, tourism, visit to relatives/acquaintances, etc.

I don't see "job hunting" on that list and I doubt the Japanese government wants to encourage people to think it falls under the "etc" category. I strongly advise anyone who wants to come to Japan on a "visa exemption" should write "sightseeing" as their purpose of visit to avoid any trouble.

A few details to add to my visa story: When I first came into the country with the certificate of eligibility, my employer had told me that I should write "waiting for visa change" as my reason for entering the country on a 90 visa. I got detained for 3 hours while they passed around my certificate and talked to each other. Eventually they said they would let me into the country, but I had to re-write the form so it said "sightseeing" as my purpose of visit.

I don't doubt that, James - telling immigration you are here to look for work probably won't go down well. But as for your assertion that looking for work while on a "tourist visa" is illegal, that is quite incorrect.

@reesan LOL give me a link to the app!

@James
> That's the official line they have to say because people on tourist visas are supposed to be
> engaging in sightseeing. Looking for work while on a tourist visa is probably illegal. They
> cannot actively encourage people to violate the terms of their visas.

Yeah, you're right. Funny that they wouldn't bend a bit on my account at the time, though. I did have a job, after all, and my employer had stated to me unequivocally that they'd submitted my visa application. Maybe it was my man telling them on the phone that he couldn't get a straight answer that got me sunk.

@mazikeen Congrats on the birth! I have no idea what would happen if you turned up in Canada with a foreign-born infant.

P.S. Did you purposefully go to Bangkok for the delivery rather than stay in Japan?

Thank you. The baby had/has a passport so I imagine Canada would have let us in too. The big problem was leaving Bangkok because the immigration man was confused on what to do with a baby who did not have proof of entering into Thailand (re: visa) but was leaving! ;D Thankfully the guy next to him knew what to enter into the computer (many women from Asia and the UK go to Bangkok to have babies and other medical care).

Yes, I chose to give birth in Bangkok rather than Japan due to various reasons involving what I felt was shoddy care during my pregnancy. I have lived in Thailand before so I was familiar with the hospitals. I will be doing it again in a few years. I should probably write a blog post about it sometime. . .

The big problem was leaving Bangkok because the immigration man was confused on what to do with a baby who did not have proof of entering into Thailand (re: visa) but was leaving! ;D

Yup, that's a good one!

Yes, I chose to give birth in Bangkok rather than Japan due to various reasons involving what I felt was shoddy care during my pregnancy. I have lived in Thailand before so I was familiar with the hospitals. I will be doing it again in a few years. I should probably write a blog post about it sometime. . .

Wow. Kindly keep us posted when you do write it up. We had a good delivery here (aside from the withholding of pain killers!) but I have since heard some tragic tales surrounding births here in Japan including a complete lapse in standard testing that resulted in a child being born with an easily detectable disease that caused the child a horrible and short existence.

Well, put it this way then: When I want to change my visa from tourist to a working visa again, I'll take a contract the company gives me, and go to immigration and apply there from within Japan. And then I'll have a visa, and you won't.

You guys feel free to wake up and say "i know the law better than you, i have to leave the country first! damn that cheeky frugalista, im not going to be as foolish as to think I could possibly do the same as he who has real experience doing it. No! I heard from someone who hadn't actually tried that it wasn't possible, so they must be right!" - then go ahead, you can buy a ticket, leave the country, and piss off to do the procedure back home. I mean, forgive me here, but I dont see any evidence from ANYONE here who was denied their visa change in Japan - and there's more than one of us saying "actually, I have done it multiple times".

But I really could care less, forgive me for trying to save your asses the bother of not leaving the country or falling prey to idiots to continue to spread misinformation regarding the "actual law".

Look Frugalista, I will concede that somehow you beat the system. And so did mazikeen. However, as even mazikeen pointed out the law says that if you entered Japan on the visa waiver program, you are required to leave the country to get a certificate of eligibility in order to change to a working or dependent visa. And I know/have known, personally, any number of people who have been denied a change or been explicitly instructed by immigration to leave in order to apply for a CoE.

Now, if you want to rant about "idiots to continue to spread misinformation regarding the actual law" might I suggest you do start with the Ministry of Justice, the ones who create and enforce the law, or perhaps the Foreign Ministry as they say right on their official website that a CoE is needed? And that you must get one from a Japanese Embassy or Consulate, in other words, outside of Japan.

If someone wants to know what is needed to enter Japan and work, I suggest you forgive those of us who are pointing to the Japanese Government's rules on the subject, the rules that 99% of the time they are going to make people abide by. I am not going to ever tell anyone "Yeah, well the law says thus-and-so, but forget about that because this guy frugalista said on a discussion boad that he lucked out, so don't bother doing things the right way, just wing it." Because that is not going to work for the vast majority of people. They'll end up like uccemebug.

Perhaps there's a discrepancy in the arguments here? When you come to Japan on the visa waiver program, you are granted a 90-day stay as a tourist sans visa. According to the law that most immigration officials adhere to, under these circumstances you are required to leave the country and come back in to "activate" a newly acquired visa, such as a working visa. As far as I know, you can apply for it in Japan, but you are technically supposed to leave the country for a one-day period, visit a consulate in a foreign country (such as Korea), and return to finish the process. Maybe frugalista actually had a proper tourist visa as opposed to entering on the visa waiver program? That's what I did when I went to Korea so I could have a legitimate multiple-entry visa that wouldn't raise any red flags.

Now, it's possible that some people get around it by just pure luck. Sometimes it just depends on what side of the bed the immigration official woke up on.

Not a bad idea to solve this discrepancy, I agree.

But twice? The first time was coming back to Japan after having cancelled everything from being in Japan before - no gaijin card, no records, just a plain tourist (non)visa. And what is this "certificate of elibility"? As as I'm aware, anyone with a university education is qualified for a visa to teach. I never handed in any other paper other than my diploma, no certificate of whatever from any consulate. Is this certifcate only required for people without real qualifications?

The second time was when my official visa expired, and I changed it to a (perhaps) official tourist visa in order to "check out some of the sights i hadnt seen while being busy working, and to allow me time to tidy up my life here".

Still , a viable possibility I'll give you that. I'll check out the stickers in my passport later and see if I can see any differences, maybe post pics for you to compare with others.

I really want to get to the bottom of this.

ps; I should add that I did get some bullshit from the immigration official the second time around, whereby my "tourist visa" was actually explicitly marked with a separate stamp as being "preparation to leave", and therefore asking to change it back to an official working visa was a big no no as far as the law (or he) was concerned. However, they cant deny you the right to apply, so I was aksed to write a letter to accompany the application explaining why my "preparing to leave" had resulted in me being offered a job. But theres the catch - I HAD been offered a job, and hence I now had a contract to show them. Once you have a contract which verifies that a Japanese company has use of you, I'm pretty sure they can't really deny you a visa.

Anyway, I wrote the excuse letter saying it had been my original intention to leave, but my chinese gf and I had decided to get married, and since she was still a student she would be here until at least april and therefore I had decided to stay here; and by the way, some university had offered my a job.

It was a one paragraph letter and I'm fairly sure it was just a formality, no actual decision would be based upon it.

> And what is this "certificate of elibility"? As as I'm aware, anyone with a university education is
> qualified for a visa to teach.

My visa was an engineering visa, not a teaching visa. The requirements include ten years experience in the field, a university degree, and a job in Japan. I've seen people with only the latter plus one of the former two getting the boot despite the efforts of their Japanese employers. I'm surprised that the requirements for English teachers are so lax.

> But theres the catch - I HAD been offered a job, and hence I now had a contract to show them.

Funny thing is that not only was I working for a foreign firm that had sent me here, but I was negotiating for a job with the Japanese version. It sounds more and more like this was simply a matter of the Japanese firm not saying the right thing to the immigration guys at the time.

Requirements for long-term visas:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/long/index.html

Processing flowchart:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/process/long.html

A CoE is, according to the law, required to get a long-term visa. It is a certificate that says the person to whom it was granted is eligible for the type of visa being applied for. If someone is applying for a Specialist in Humanities visa to teach English, the CoE is certification that the applicant meets the requirements (has a college degree, has a sponsor, etc) for that visa. Likewise if someone is applying for a Family Visit visa, the CoE would be certification that the applicant meets the requirements for that visa status.

I suspect, frugalista, that one of the following is happening in your case:

At some point whether you are aware of it or not you were given a CoE. Once you have one of those you can jump around changing your status of residence (commonly known as "changing one's visa"). As I did - enter Japan with a CoE for a Cultural Activities visa, then change status of residence to Specialist in Humanities and later change again to Spouse etc. of a Japanese National. However there are some limits as, for example, you need a CoE to enter Japan on a Student visa, but if you then decide to work in Japan and even if you find an employer you have to get a new CoE to qualify for the Specialist in Humanities visa, and that means (by the book at least) a trip outside of Japan. I do not know which other visa types have this kind of limitation.

The other option is that the first time around you just got lucky, and since then when someone at immigration sees your passport they see a working visa stamp, even if expired, and assume that you must have been given a CoE (rules require it!) and they just aren't bothering to check to see if you ever actually did get one.

You mention the "first time" as "coming back after having been in Japan before". Were you still traveling on the same passport? What was your original visa status from whenever "before" was? I suspect the key to all this lies there.

32 socs! wow...nice to see there's something everyone can get together on.